The 'Feminism' Debate - round 1

This is a reply to http://huggleslut.blogspot.co.uk/ who is a personal friend of mine. We both, along with another friend of hours, have very different views on the topic of feminism; and began this debate on facebook within the past week, when she posted this video.


              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtzqvqzBdUQ

With the comment: “Why feminism is still important! X) Also funny...but kind of scary that this even needs to be a thing.”


Her words are in pink
My initial words are in blue and the paragraphs in []my thoughts after I read the whole post on her blog and commented on the sections which I believed, needed to be revisited
Our 2nd friend's words are in green.Her name is Zoe, as I will be defending some of her points using her name.

You do realise that feminism won't stop rape right... or sexual objectification or any of that sort. And legitimate rape is just a YouTube joke in response to Todd Akin's stupidity. Another flaw in feminism: rape doesn't just happen to women, and it's not only performed by men ^____^

Yeah. But men can't get pregnant. The whole point of this specific issue is that republicans want to make abortion legal (another important feminist issue) and so they can push it forward they've come up with this insane idea that women can't get pregnant from "legitimate rape" of course men get raped and that is as awful and horrendous as women but no one is trying to legislate what sexual health care men have access to.

See that's the point, there is no way in hell the republicans can do so without the people's votes. [Here I'm actually biting my own tongue after reading the stupidity of my own words. You see, dear readers, I completely forgot that the world isn't filled with people with the same train of thought as mine. In fact many people (and not just extremist religious groups) are in fact against abortion. For that sole reason they may be prepared to ignore the idiotic statements made my Tod Ankin in a public commercial, and vote for the republicans]  And now that Todd Akin made an idiot out of himself on national TV, they're not going to get the votes. And by the way men's health care is f***** up since twice or three times as much money goes into breast cancer research and it's only in the past few years that someone actually bothered to raise awareness of prostate cancer. Personally I think that that's just as important as abortion. By the way sorry  if I seem like I'm totally disregarding the problems of women and taking the side of men but I'm just really enjoying this debate ^^

The scary thing is , republicans are STILL GETTING THE VOTE! This isn’t a joke. Latest figures are “Obama 47, Romney 46” http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/latest_polls/ meaning people are still voting for them and the closer Romney gets to the White House, the closer this legislation becomes dangerously close to being passed. [After looking at the evidence you provided I am once again biting my tongue. In fact this is now becoming the case where I wouldn't mind a healthy dose of feminism. In fact here is Obama's response, where he makes several important points in this case http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLgB3qTpSmc] Yes, more research needs to go into prostate cancer, it’s a horrible condition like all cancer; ALL CANCER should be getting funding  - this isn’t a matter of gender. I don’t know why breast cancer is more publicised? I don’t think it’s just a case of “Poor women! We have to help them” and if it is…well that’s just more sociological inbuilt sexism in so far as male chivalry is concerned. [Yes, you're right by saying it's not sexist but I didn't claim it to be. The problem with cancer funding is publicity, which this cancer gets from the global community. These are the basis upon which charities work. Whilst not being sexist, however, the lack of funding and publicity of prostate cancer is an issue which has been disregarded by  many feminists I have came across] Here I'm obviously speaking from personal experience and I do not claim that all feminists will disregard this problem.

Also, I have to disagree with your statement that funding for prostate cancer research as important as the right to abortion. [Well my friend here you are choosing one person's health over another. Is this really the way we should be thinking?] No one is trying to create laws that prevent research into prostate cancer. Abortion should be a right for any woman who feels she needs the procedure. Of course there will always be women who exploit this and have abortions for selfish or so called “unethical” reasons [You see I don't believe that there is such think as an unethical reason for abortion. Please enlighten me. Picture this scenario, mature woman (who didn't get raped, or anything like that) decides to terminate her pregnancy because she doesn't want a child. Not being allowed to do so, she may resent this child for the rest of it's life. this child can no longer take the pain and commits suicide, or something to this result. Wouldn't it be so much easier to just have an abortion? forgive me but this is the only case I can think of where abortion could be perceived as unethical. If you disagree, please let me know.]; this does not mean we should stop women completely having access to it. Forcing a woman to carry a child to term unwillingly is tantamount to torture in my eyes: you are putting her body and mind through outrageous stress and pain because of religious scripture?! How can this be right? Of course I’m not denying or belittling the sufferers of prostate cancer which can be equally damaging to a person, but what would you say if they were trying to take away the right for men to have prostate exams which can catch the disease early and help so much in treatment. More funding should be spent on treating prostate cancer; that is a fact. Abortion should be legal; that is also a fact in my opinion. [ I have never once spoken out against abortion. In fact I'm completely in support of it. And whilst being forced to have a child is a for of cruelty and can be mentally damaging for a woman; prostate cancer can be just as damaging for a man - and let's not forget it can take his life.  Now I am not one to decide which is worse, psychological and physical damage from an unwanted child, or death or pain and stress of chemotherapy. But one thing I stand by. It is wrong to decide who's health is more important, especially in 2 situations as grave as these.]

I agree with you ( to blue)  - the most publicised cancer out there is breast cancer when the most likely cancer to get is Prostate cancer. Anorexia is talked about with girls but not so much with boys, who also get it. Women have more rights over the custody of a child than men do. People go on about Women's rights - but men's rights are not nearly so publicised. With Domestic Violence, a large proportion happens to men and it is more often men who get treated to derision by the police if they report it.

Again, the problem here is not feminism. [I don't think you quite understand what we are trying convey in these statements. We aren't blaming feminism for any of these problems which men face. We are merely trying to show that men have problems as well as women. However there is no mailism, to try and combat those problems,and feminism seems to somewhat disregard them] It’s society in general. Of course boys have problems with self-image as much as girls and again this is a terrible thing. But it isn’t feminism as a movement’s fault that no one is publicizing this issue. There are many articles out and books out there that deal with the issue of male self-image but they just seem to be talked about less…again I don’t know why and I do think this is wrong. All adolescents should have help and guidance when it comes to tackling this issue, but the thing I have a problem with is you seem to be saying that teenage girls are getting “too much help” female anorexia is still a huge problem so it still has to be talked about. Male eating disorders do need to be put forward in the press more, I agree, but that doesn’t mean it has to be at the expense of emphasis on female eating disorders too. [Ok, what I want to say here is quite complicated to explain but I'll do my best. Male and female lack of self esteem is a problem of an equal magnitude. However when a girl is going though this terrible thing, people pint the finger at the media, the fashion industry, her friends; and helping this girl seems to be the main agenda. However when a boy is going though the same thing, he will be laughed at by his peers, and may feel alienated. This is why he is less likely to acknowledge his condition and seek help. This is something I feel particularly strong about because I have a personal friend who is male and the problem with his self image takes a massive toll on his metal health, causing him depression. By saying this I'm merely trying to say that social attitudes need to be the same towards both parties, and they should have an equal amount of help.
However the whole topic of anorexia, body image and the media, is a topic I want to discuss in depth in another blog post.]

Men have rights, women have rights, and people have rights. That is why they are HUMAN RIGHTS. In the western world (in theory) men and women are equal in all ways. In reality this isn’t carried forward unfortunately. Yes, traditionally domestic violence is against women and of course it is a huge problem that men feel emasculated or embarrassed to come forward with these problems and even worse that institutionalised sexism still occurs causing the “derision” you mentioned. This is not the fault of feminism, this is the fault of a society that is still inherently sexist, and the reason feminism needs to exist in the first place. Men don’t want to come forward because they feel it is somehow shameful to be hurt by a woman, why? Because men are taught that they are stronger, that they should be able to handle their wives and that anyone who can’t isn’t a “proper man”. Not only is this insanely damaging to men who may find their gender more fluid or who enjoy activities usually viewed as “feminine” but it implies that women are weaker and incapable of causing any real damage to a man. A feminist issue that effects both the genders. [Once again I feel I must stress that, with my statements at least, I do not place the blame upon feminism. I am however trying to convey that men have these problems, and they are overlooked by the ideology of feminism. Indeed social attitudes are to blame, however there is no ideological group to fight for men's rights, which to my view causes an imbalance.]

Women do get more rights to child custody, a problem I severely disagree with. The whole notion of “maternal instinct” is scientifically flawed. Psychologists have proven that children form the closest bond with which ever parent is the primary carer; gender is irrelevant. Again, women are forced into the stereotype “mother” - an adjective which cannot be applied to a male – and this apparently trumps the concept of “father” in terms of love and compassion? Problem. If women were seen as people and not “women” then there wouldn’t be an issue here, the jury would grant custody to the parent they see as best able to care for the child; but because the notion of women as care-givers is so ingrained into our society, they come to the conclusion that “a child needs a mother, a father is secondary” rather than the more beneficial for the child; “this parent is more capable of looking after the child for X, Y and Z”. [ I think I'll allow Zoe to try and defend our standing here as, upon a little bit of further research, I couldn't find any up to date and 100% reliable evidence with which I could combat your statement. For now i will eat my words, but this is a topic worth revisiting]

With feminism is, we have progressed in such a short time - thousands upon thousands of years of so called 'morality' have been discredited in less than a hundred... Although this is a good thing, we should be working for worldwide progress instead of getting more and more petty and militant in our westernised, widely more educated countries. To me the biggest flaw in feminism is the reaction it receives among dare-I-say-it Arab countries, many where marital rape is legal and where, contrary to popular belief, there has been a surge in religious fundamentalism who believe in sharia law and not letting women out alone in the street without a male family member as an escort.

Suffering is relative. And yes, while I agree that it seems somewhat lazy for a lot of western feminists to focus mainly on problems in their environment and not look outside of their society, a problem is still a problem. Waste disposal in the UK is not as dramatic an issue as say institutionalised racism, but take away the bin lorries and we will soon find ourselves in a mess. [Yes but it would be just as easy to spend a little less effort in keeping the bin lorries here (a case in which minimum effort is needed) and prepare for a full on war with rubbish and waste overseas, where it's needed. Within countries like ours, where the turn for the better treatment of women has already been made, all we need is a healthy dose of equal opportunity and equal rights.] We cannot as a society focus solely on problems that are glamorous or the kind of issue that get people upset. The smallest issue being fixed can lead to shifts in public mindset which are all a step in the right direction. To describe issues such as sexual harassment, sexism in the media or slut shaming as “petty” is frankly offensive.  Women going on protests and boycotting certain companies and products does nothing to anyone else, these women have made an informed choice; I hardly see how this is “militant”. Give one recent example of women doing anything violent or damaging and maybe that word will become applicable. [Your comment here reminded me greatly of a radical feminist blogger a while ago. Sadly her blog has either been deleted or disabled, but here's a video of a youtuber, very rightly, calling her out for her militant words. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-8mLHwOYcU . He reads out a lot of passages from her blog and most of the content is, well... shocking. Thankfully radical feminists do just that, preach hate, instead of causing physical damage.
Sadly,you completely cut out the part where Zoe explained exactly what she meant by the word 'petty'. Here it is:
ally, how dare we complain and get angry over the use of the word 'Miss' - which many feminists want to ban. How dare we go out scantily clad then have the cheek of saying, 'I don't want to be seen as a sexual object' because guess what - it is NOT more comfortable to be dressed in bikini tops and fishnets with stilettos, so the desire to be seen as attractive to men is fundamentally there when wearing these sort of items. 
And yes I do thing that these things mentioned above are in fact petty.

The “dare-I-say-it” was unnecessary. Yes, Islamic countries have huge issues with sexism based on religious doctrine. This is a fact; there’s no need to act so coy and “politically correct” about it, especially after declaring feminist issues as “petty”. One type of discrimination is no better than the other. [ I don't see how discrimination of women based upon religious ideologies and discrimination of women based upon the gender, are 2 different typed of discrimination. And wasn't it you, who in several paragraphs before, put one type of health over another?] In these countries, stoning women is still illegal and all the issues you raised are completely true. But one, I don’t know a single feminist who doesn’t know or care about these issues, and two, as women, there isn’t a lot feminism can do to change the entire religious and political stance of nations who due to these stances disregard anything said by women whether intelligent or not. Give me a way of fixing these problems and I’ll get right on that! But for now, fixing problems in the western world is a lot more realistic goal and still important in making the world better for everyone. [I agree that fixing the problems of the western world is very important, I do not see how feminism can accomplish it.]

Women also get on average 40% lesser sentence than a man for exactly the same crime. When a man comments on a woman's boobs it’s a massive profanity, but if a woman makes a comment on the guys cock, no one cares.... and many such things.
I completely agree with  (green) on the point about the Arabian countries. That is definitely a case where a healthy dose of feminism could be a very good thing, the problem is the closed mentality of not only men but some women in those countries, who object to having it any other way. That is a much harder topic though.
Anyway feminism isn't fighting for equal rights (it should be but in the present day in 1st world countries it's just not the case) it’s the fight for the rights of women. Personally I think that if people concentrated less on which side has it worse, and just focused on true equality, without any extremist action on either side.... well, it would be nice...

Again the chivalry principle takes hold. Women get lesser sentences on the whole because society’s view of pity on women. That “oh, she’s only a woman” inherent in the judge’s mind leads to these kind of wrong and unfair justice calls. The concept of feminism attempts to eradicate the idea that men and women are separate, and if this is ever achieved (which I doubt it ever will, let alone in our lifetime) then this will no longer be a problem. “when a man comments on a woman's boobs it’s a massive profanity” well actually not always, so called “locker room humour” and sexist jokes are all around us in the media and for the most part – apart from the “militant feminists” – are ignored or allowed to slide by the general public. The fact that t-shirts like these http://www.guardian.co.uk/fashion/fashion-blog/2011/sep/14/topman-sexist-t-shirts were allowed to even be printed shows how little impact sexism has on society. Of course there was an outcry from self-respecting women and rightly so! Comparing women to dogs or the shirt that scarily looks like a list of common excuses for domestic abuse (on women…sorry about that but yes, women do get hit and so do men) should not be a thing that is at all acceptable. [Actually I was appalled by the t-shirts, but to be honest they come under the right of free speech. It is up to the people if they want to wear them or not. We cannot censor the world. Instead of banning these things (yes including the 'hey nice boobs' comment) we should educate people on mutual respect for humanity as a whole. Yes, it may sound like I'm completely brushing off the whole issue, I don't see how it is anyone's right to ban people from speaking.]

Feminism is exactly fighting for equal rights. The fact that it focuses mainly on issues about prejudice regarding women does not make all of its points irrelevant! [There is no mailist group. And I honestly would LOVE to see a feminist fighting as hard for the rights of man, as women.] We do not ignore racist issues against POC because “white people are affected by prejudice too”.  No side has it worst. There are many many issues on both sides of the debate and they are separate. The idea of any movement is “look, here is an issue. How do we fix?” it has never been about “omg life’s so unfair for women all the time because of this…” By demonising the movement as a whole, you run the risk of ignoring important issues that are brought up by these kinds of debate. [I am not demonising the movement. You either don't quite understand what I'm saying, or I'm explaining it all wrong, I honestly don't know. But demonising is not what I wasn't to accomplish. I have stated that in many cases a healthy dose of feminism is needed, however, it also brings about new problems. Also I am offering an alternative to this one sided fight for equality ideology.]

“The phenomenon known as male privilege: the idea that men – most often straight, white men – as a whole, get certain privileges and status because of their gender.” http://feministing.com/2010/07/16/michael-kimmel-on-male-entitlement-anger-and-invisible-privilege/ (Actually a really good article to read if you have the time, I’m going to be quoting it a lot anyway)

This is one of the main reasons sexism still exists in our society and why feminism isn’t irrelevant! It’s still extremely important and I think it’s awful in a society that has created something as amazing as the internet (how I’m even able to write this in a legible way with sources etc.) and have made such leaps in scientific and artistic fields that this is still even an issue.

“The strawmen that are regularly trotted out – that men are objectified as well, that it's a convention of the genre, that women actually have more privileges than guys – are a distraction from the real issue: that the Privileged are worried that they won't be as privileged in the near future if this threat isn't stomped out. Hence the usual reactions: derailment, minimisation and ultimately dismissing the topic all together.”

The fact that men have problems in society does not lessen the problems of the women! There are a million different issues that concern the planet and to call someone out on only focusing on one is a little stupid. World hunger is another huge issue, but does that mean that people should stop fighting the case for gender equality?  People focus on issues – for the most part – that affect them, this is just human nature. I am a woman, I see sexism against women and I want to help however I can. I’m also a human so I’m also a member of Amnesty International who fight for human rights. This does not mean I don’t care about men’s rights too, or the problem of world hunger, but there will always be issues that a person is more concerned about and to denounce them for that is pointless and unhelpful. [Once again purposefully misunderstanding my point. However I have explained my point enough above, for the readers to understand that I am not attempting to denounce the issues of women.]

“Male privilege – again – is about what men can expect as the default setting for society. A man isn't going to have everything about him filtered through the prism of his gender first. A man isn't expected to be a representative of his sex in all things…When paired with a woman who is of equal status; the man can expect that most of the world will assume that he's the one in charge.” [ Here you have wonderfully stomped out a point you have made when speaking about adolescent body image issues. This is also a misconception of most women. Indeed men ARE expected to be a certain way just because of their gender, just like women.  Men are expected to be physical, able to hold a position of power, able to fight for their own. This is also a form of having everything about one self filtered though the prism of his gender; and YOU, my dear friend, recognised this towards the beginning of this post. Please try to stick to what you say.]

Now take for instance, these 'slut walks' - yes, I agree that we shouldn't blame the woman for being raped because she is dressed in a certain way, but the whole argument was sparked because a police officer said to a group of Canadian students that they would be safer at night if they didn't go out dressed like a slut. This is TRUE. And I always take the side of the woman who cannot speak for herself. The side of the woman in Saudi Arabia who cannot drive and who lives head-to-toe in black, subjected to legal marital rape. Do we not realise that many people in countries like Saudi Arabia have access to computers or hear news like this? We are endangering that woman's future without slut walks. [Here I completely disagree with the notion of slut walks supposedly 'endangering' the futures of Arabian women.] No wonder men in these countries aren't keen to loosen up, if they see women in the west acting like this. Really, how dare we complain and get angry over the use of the word 'Miss' - which many feminists want to ban. How dare we go out scantily clad then have the cheek of saying, 'I don't want to be seen as a sexual object' because guess what - it is NOT more comfortable to be dressed in bikini tops and fishnets with stilettos, so the desire to be seen as attractive to men is fundamentally there when wearing these sort of items. Why is it okay for men in nothing but boxers to be standing outside Abercrombie&Fitch without anyone calling it degrading, but if someone dared do that with women in bikinis outside a clothing chain, it would be degrading and the mark of a patriarchal society. [But men do walk around with their chests bare, and the crotch of their jeans dangling between their knees, their ass crack out for everyone to stare at. It's the same as women standing around in bikini tops and hot pants. Only men do it in a slightly different way.]

“Because she is dressed in a certain way, but the whole argument was sparked because a police officer said to a group of Canadian students that they would be safer at night if they didn't go out dressed like a slut. This is TRUE.” …that is the whole problem! The point that women should not dress a certain way if they do not want to be raped is a horrible example of victim blaming. “She was dressed like a slut, it attracted a rapist; her fault!” No one, and I repeat in capital letters NO ONE behaves in a certain way because they want to get raped! It is never the victim’s fault. [Here you're wrong. These girls dress the way they dress, like 'sluts', to attract male attention. And not just for a friendly conversation, or several drinks at the bar, but sexual attention. If that attention is something they don't want, maybe they should wear a little more clothing. Whereas I agree with you that, the way a person is dressed, is no reason to rape them; they should be more aware of their own safety hazards. We don't live in a world where we can wear whatever we want and it will have no implication the way we can be treated by others.
Now my dear, you are a goth and this is a metaphor you should be familiar with. As you know, many goths (especially those who dress more extremely) get picked on/bullied by the 'so called' normal people because of how they dress. If they continue dressing this way, they will be harassed. If they want to stop the harassment, they have to tone it down. It's the only way it works. Of course if the person in question gets physically assaulted or killed, it is only the responsibility of the killer. Things like verbal harassment are partly the fault of the goth.]

A quote from one of my favourite blogs evilslutopia.com “…the point is that what we wear, where we go, and how much we drink doesn't indicate anything about whether we want to engage in sexual activity. We "indicate our willingness" when we indicate our willingness by actually consenting to sex. It's a little creepy to think that… [Some people] apparently believe that a woman can consent to "participate in a sexual free-for-all" simply by wearing a short skirt or having a few drinks. And of course it's not just sex, but a sexual free-for-all (whatever that means), because after all, we are talking about sluts here, right? [Once again, of course wearing a mini skirt or drinking doesn't indicate the willingness to perform sexual acts; but neither is it looking after one's own personal security. Of course I'm not suggesting that women should go to bars dressed like nuns. But they should be more aware that there are all sorts of predators out there and one's disregard for one's own safety is purely the fault of one self. Yes it is completely COMPLETELY WRONG to take advantage of an intoxicated woman, but maybe she should drink just a little bit less.]

You seem to be arguing that feminists don’t care about the rights of women in other countries which is ridiculous. Of course we care about the women in Saudi Arabia! It is despicable and just disgusting that this injustice still occurs in this day and age. However, you have to view this issue through the lens of: Men in these countries deliberately reject anything they see as western: whether this is feminism, freedom of religion or democracy. Does this also mean we should stop fighting for democracy because when we have protests such as the Occupy Movement it pushes them in the wrong direction? We are not responsible for these men, we cannot change their minds because (and this is the whole issue) we are women! They just will not listen to us. That is the end of it when it comes to them. So why should we stop protesting our right not to be blamed if we are sexually assaulted because not-slut-walking is not going to change their minds. “How dare” we complain and get angry over the word “miss”;  a word which intrinsically displays our position in society as to our relationship to a man?! We are well within our rights to be against this. The concept of “miss and mrs” etc were designed to quickly tell society where your place was. If you were a “Miss” you were either young or a spinster – either way less of a woman; if you were a “Mrs” then everything was completely fine because you were married off and were happily the property of your husband. Society has moved on from there, why not our vocabulary? [Yes we are way within our rights to object to whatever we want, including the use of the word  'miss'. And yes she did come on forcefully within that argument. Too forcefully in fact. But I think that people these days look for holes in everything and read too much into the words. What is so wrong with stating a person's marital stance? In fact I think there should be a word signifying whether a man is tied to a woman and is therefore her property.  Personally I don't feel like the word 'miss' makes me less of a woman and I look forward to the day where i can change it to miss, for marriage is something to be proud off, as a glorious partnership. Seems like the main people who would object to this are those who have not yet felt the joy if a happy married life, where power is equal.

“How dare we go out scantily clad then have the cheek of saying, 'I don't want to be seen as a sexual object' because guess what - it is NOT more comfortable to be dressed in bikini tops and fishnets with stilettos, so the desire to be seen as attractive to men is fundamentally there when wearing these sort of items.” Do you not think this a little hypocritical based on your own fashion choices? I am fighting here for your right to wear these clothes because fashion makes you happy! And that is great! You should feel happy and free to dress how you want to. The problem is, there is a difference between getting wanted sexual attention and rape. I like dressing as a Goth, which should tell the outside world nothing more than “This person likes dressing that way, and sure it might be a little weird, but meh”. A person should be free to choose how they dress based on their own opinions and preferences not based on “Oh…probably shouldn’t wear that top I like, that looks nice and makes me feel good about myself, because I might be accidentally sexually objectified or raped...” It is fine to enjoy male attention; men enjoy getting attention from women too, that’s cool. But there is a difference between catching the eye of a guy and dancing with him, and having him come and feel you up and justify it by saying “She was wearing skimpy clothes, she was asking for it…” [Skimpy clothes definitely do NOT justify unwanted sexual attention, I agree with you here. But as I said before, we do not live in a world where we can wear what we want and expect everyone to respect up for it. Human beings have very little respect for one another. That is our nature sadly.]

“Why is it okay for men in nothing but boxers to be standing outside Abercrombie&Fitch without anyone calling it degrading, but if someone dared do that with women in bikinis outside a clothing chain, it would be degrading and the mark of a partriarchal society.” If a man chooses to do that, fine! I’m not saying he should…he’ll probably get cold… but it’s his choice to do so! It shouldn’t be called degrading if a woman does the same because that principle is based around the fear and sexualisation of the female form. A woman can’t be half naked without it being sexual and this is the mark of a patriarchal society! Half-naked man is judged as “Oh, that guy must be hot; the weather is quite warm today.” A woman wearing a bikini and shorts however gets the response “Oh my god, she’s gorgeous etc.” or more cruelly “Ew!? What does she think she’s doing?! She needs to put some clothes on.” The fact that there is still this separation is a problem in the way our society views the human body. The female form is constantly being objectified sexually even when unnecessary and ignoring the own woman’s motivation behind dressing the way she does.